badgerbag: Abstraction

badgerbag (

badgerbag) wrote,
@ 2009-02-04 08:22 am UTC

Entry tags:

Abstraction

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010999.html

What? Oh, that? No of course I'm not talking about that. It's just totally abstract.

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	no subject ithiliana.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	So, the hordes of trolls on LJ are now upgraded to....being a cargo cult? Wow. WOW. Does she have no historical knowledge of the context of colonialism in which that terminology arose??? (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 18 comments) (Show 18 comments)

	no subject ladyjax.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. WOW. Does she have no historical knowledge of the context of colonialism in which that terminology arose??? I don't think she cares which is why I'll never assume any good intentions on her part when it comes to discussions about race. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject ide-cyan.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 05:29 pm UTC (link)
	That entry's not by Teresa. It's from Patrick. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 7 comments) (Show 7 comments)

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ithiliana.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 06:09 pm UTC (Expand)

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ide-cyan.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)

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ide-cyan.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject akirlu.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	Postcolonial theory is not the same discipline as history, actually, and is hardly universal. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

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ide-cyan.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:39 pm UTC (Expand)

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akirlu.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:44 pm UTC (Expand)

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akirlu.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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ide-cyan.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 09:16 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject delux-vivens.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 08:30 pm UTC (link)
	To me? Its not even worth getting upset about. Its a convenient distraction-- 'yay let talk about this book about cargo cults' is way easier to deal with than say 'let's talk about a broken flute'. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject anahcrow.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 03:11 pm UTC (link)
	What I found so ironic is that when you read it, it struck me as exactly what the people on the pantsless side of the fail were doing. "Intent is everything" and so on. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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daedala.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 03:29 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject ithiliana.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	Did she ever answer your perfectly polite and with real name attached questions, btw? (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject badgerbag.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 06:04 pm UTC (link)
	I never really did make them into something that was a clear question. No one answered them as they were. Based on what's happening with other people on tnh's journal I don't expect an answer. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject ladyjax.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	I really, really don't like those folks one bit. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 20 comments) (Show 20 comments)

	no subject badgerbag.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	I'm with you here. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 8 comments) (Show 8 comments)

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akirlu.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)

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akirlu.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:40 pm UTC (Expand)

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juliansinger.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)

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la-vie-noire.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 09:55 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject akirlu.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 07:01 pm UTC (link)
	Small wonder, if you start out assuming bad intentions. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 9 comments) (Show 9 comments)

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ladyjax.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)

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akirlu.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:12 pm UTC (Expand)

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badgerbag.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject moondancerdrake.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	Ditto (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject lavendertook.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 07:13 pm UTC (link)
	One of the things that article decries is the idea that everyone is an expert. So if this is a problem, why is it OK for white people to dismiss the pointing out of racism by the people who have greater expertise in experiencing it? Oh yeah, because whiteness is expertise in analysis, with the emphasis on the first 2 syllables. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

	no subject akirlu.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 07:16 pm UTC (link)
	So, is it possible for a PoC to be mistaken in any assessment of racism? Is a single definition of 'racism' an objective fact that is universally agreed on? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

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lavendertook.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)

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moondancerdrake.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 09:56 pm UTC (Expand)

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delux-vivens.livejournal.com
2009-02-04 08:19 pm UTC (link)

You know, this thread in your lj is the umpteenth time recently I've seen someone trying to 'engage' with poc but who seems to somehow not be able to develop the trust and history of interactions that would that possible.

Jumping into conversations of white people who *do* have enough credibility with outspoken people of color seems to be a popular tactic.

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badgerbag.livejournal.com
2009-02-04 08:32 pm UTC (link)

Yeah. I've noticed that too.

I'm getting the picture here too that pnh and tnh maybe did have that history which is why people are still trying to talk to them, or at the least are kind of sitting back and waiting to see where they land when they calm down. I was in the sit and wait camp and now am moving towards somewhere else.

I am unsettled at the rhetorical tacks they're both taking which to me sound like reframing the entire discussion and series of incidents as a symptom of a deep problem in discourse, one which isn't their problem but instead can be tied up neatly with anti-intellectual, anti-science, movements. Thus moving all the very good discussion and anti-racist analysis into the "hordes" or "PC police" category, and anything "cultural studies" related into a binary opposition to science, intellectuals, facts, discourse at all, and what have you. THAT is something I didn't expect and that I'm familiar with from the "multiculturalism" academia culture wars in the 80s, whch I felt like progressive academics won the battle while the dominant culture aka govt. funding and conservative think tanks won the battle. However, now that landscape is shifting as our government shifts, so perhaps people are disturbed by tectonic shifts they don't even get, ie, black and populist president = possible loss of their own privilege. I don't mean naything so simplistic as "Obama president, all the white people freak out" it is more like, people of color and social class lately starting to be represented and framed much differently in all media. I don't think I can say this very well and I am possibly approaching it wrong, but there is something in there to pick out and look at.

Whew. That was long enough that I should move it to its own post.

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delux-vivens.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 08:34 pm UTC (Expand)

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ide-cyan.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)

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http://users.livejournal.com/_swallow/, 2009-02-05 02:23 am UTC (Expand)

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lalouve.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 09:57 am UTC (Expand)

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vito-excalibur.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 05:06 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject skywardprodigal.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 04:11 pm UTC (link)
	Regarding umpteenth times...Have you banned/kept track of these instances? If so, may I have that ban_set list? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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delux-vivens.livejournal.com, 2009-02-09 01:38 am UTC (Expand)

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vito-excalibur.livejournal.com
2009-02-05 05:12 pm UTC (link)

Not only that:

akirlu, specifically, here, seems to be denying even the concept of having a history of interactions that affects the way people engage. Like where she describes the conclusion that one might reasonably draw after a 20-day, hundreds of comments-long discussion with and about the Nielsen Haydens, as "assuming bad intentions." (http://badgerbag.livejournal.com/225437.html?thread=1172381#t1172381)

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skywardprodigal.livejournal.com
2009-02-04 08:34 pm UTC (link)

Thanks for the link! I find it as appealing (and persuasive) as Bloom's intro to the 10th anniversary Best of the Best American Poetry anthology. And Bloom had better cred. And still he was full of fail in that.

I'd seen pnh's post and rolled my eyes accordingly. Even though the posturing you link to is rooted in Sci-fi, I think Jill Nelson's recent piece on race and media representation applies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-nelson/the-audacity-of-whiteness_b_163295.html).

Also, you may find some of Kit Stolen (http://community.livejournal.com/steamfashion/374499.html)'s thoughts on cargo cults (and sci-fi's most popular bastard-of-the-minute) relevant.

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	no subject badgerbag.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 08:35 pm UTC (link)
	I thought of Bloom just now too and was totally throwing up in my mouth as I did. See above and my mention of 80s academic multiculturalism / culture wars. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

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ithiliana.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 11:05 pm UTC (Expand)

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delux-vivens.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 08:39 pm UTC (Expand)

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ithiliana.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 11:05 pm UTC (Expand)

I attacked his "We Have the Heights" essay my last year of college. -

fightingwords.livejournal.com, 2009-02-04 11:33 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: I attacked his "We Have the Heights" essay my last year of college. -

ithiliana.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 02:08 am UTC (Expand)

	Via links la-vie-noire.livejournal.com 2009-02-04 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	Blah blah blah. I like people who are enamored of their own voices. You know, "OF COURSE IT'S A THEORY, I'M WHITE, I HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY LIVED IT." Or, this could be a distorted case of "my theory is more important than your experience." (Reply to this)

	no subject pantryslut.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 12:14 am UTC (link)
	"...“stuff I just now realized I think.” [like:] Certainty is strength, doubt is weakness[.] Admitting alternatives is undermining one’s own belief. Changing one’s mind means one has wasted the time spent holding the prior opinion." [etc.] You know, he could've just tried apologizing. Tongue only halfway in cheek. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject badgerbag.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 12:31 am UTC (link)
	If he means to apply it to everyone I like him better for it, because I believe super strongly in uncertainty, and being transparent about doubt and change and failure. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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pantryslut.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 12:34 am UTC (Expand)

	Oh, look -- I am shocked, SHOCKED I say bellatrys.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 12:43 am UTC (link)
	to find akirlu making tedious, tendentious, intellectually-dishonest logic-chopping arguments in your blog. Or, actually, not so much. At all. (Reply to this)

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al-zorra.livejournal.com
2009-02-05 02:55 am UTC (link)

It seems that people who are startled / shocked at finding themselves held up as examples of colorist dominionist discourse are people who don't really have friends who aren't like themselves. I mean dealing with parents dying, children going to hell -- or not, good stuff, bad stuff, loaning money, asking for a loan, cooking together, dancing together.

They know and associate with POC in very many ways, but all of them are in the context of domination -- teacher-student, editor-writer, boss-entry employee, conferences - conventions at which the white population well outnumbers the number of poc.

Or something.

If a person who happens to be white spends a lot of time with, um friends, i.e. people you hang out with when it isn't work, who aren't white also, people who proclaim non-color bias can look rather different.

This is ugly and I wish it hadn't happened. But I'm not surprised.

I believe from the bottom of my soul if you as a white person, don't really have deep personal relationships -- of equality, of even -- um, totally in charge of the deal -- you will have a problem that you haven't looked at.

Which is the Really Big Elephant in the U.S.A.'s living room anyway. I probably didn't make any sense in this context, but it is as best I could describe the social AND professional worlds within which my household makes life's music.

This, again, is not to claim specialness -- just a great joy and sense of fortune.

And, sometimes incredible anger, as the bullshyte that went down all over the place about Ms. Franklin's Inaugural Hat.

Love, C.

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	no subject badgerbag.livejournal.com 2009-02-05 03:29 am UTC (link)
	Your thought about the power relationships is verrrrry interesting. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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lalouve.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 10:04 am UTC (Expand)

Well, that would be nice... -

bellatrys.livejournal.com, 2009-02-05 11:23 am UTC (Expand)

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moondancerdrake.livejournal.com
2009-02-05 09:38 pm UTC (link)

*sigh* these people make my brain hurt. I made the mistake of starting to read the comments and the urge to reach through the cyberspace and spack the shit outta some folks was hard to contain. I think I need to got hug my kids.

So many people (mostly white writers) I'd always respected have said such horrible and hateful things over the past few weeks... I wonder what might come out of my mouth at Wiscon this year if these folks are still missing the clue train by then. I guess we'll find out in May.

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Abstraction

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Oh, look -- I am shocked, SHOCKED I say

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