Abstraction

[badgerbag]

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010999.html

What? Oh, that? No of course I'm not talking about that. It's just totally abstract.

Comments

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

So, the hordes of trolls on LJ are now upgraded to....being a cargo cult?

Wow. WOW. Does she have no historical knowledge of the context of colonialism in which that terminology arose???

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

Did she ever answer your perfectly polite and with real name attached questions, btw?

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

I really, really don't like those folks one bit.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Wow. WOW. Does she have no historical knowledge of the context of colonialism in which that terminology arose???

I don't think she cares which is why I'll never assume any good intentions on her part when it comes to discussions about race.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

That entry's not by Teresa. It's from Patrick.

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

I never really did make them into something that was a clear question. No one answered them as they were. Based on what's happening with other people on tnh's journal I don't expect an answer.

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

I'm with you here.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

Thanks--I saw that when I went to link myself.

So does he not have any knowledge!

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Small wonder, if you start out assuming bad intentions.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Your loss(es).

The more I see of them, the more it seems to me that the "contextualized" readings of Post Modern approaches just get in the way of communicating with, or understanding, anyone who hasn't drunk that particular Kool Aid. That's rather a pity, because it manages to alienate potential allies and makes a lot of advocates self-marginalizing.

It's particularly ironic, too, in the context of that pointer, because one of the points being made: the falsity of the belief that "You are not the problem" has been exemplified rather a lot on the side of self-styled antiracists. On both sides, of course, but irony is where you find it.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Small wonder, if you start out assuming bad intentions.

And why should I keep giving some of these people the benefit of the doubt that they'll actually get their acts together?

I gave it a whole lot of thought before I made that statement because as I rule I don't like writing people off but no, in this, no more free passes.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Postcolonial theory is not the same discipline as history, actually, and is hardly universal.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it. Sadly, my initial thoughts still stand.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Hey, as long as we define someone else's getting "their acts together" as thinking and behaving in ways that you agree with and based on theories of reading you subscribe to, there's absolutely no reason you should give people the benefit of the doubt that they'll do that. Because they won't.

But as long as you assume malice, you're unlikely to understand people. That's your choice, of course. And no doubt it feels a lot fuzzier than supposing that any of the miscommunication problem falls on your side.

[lavendertook.livejournal.com]

One of the things that article decries is the idea that everyone is an expert. So if this is a problem, why is it OK for white people to dismiss the pointing out of racism by the people who have greater expertise in experiencing it? Oh yeah, because whiteness is expertise in analysis, with the emphasis on the first 2 syllables.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

No point in being swayed by facts.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

So, is it possible for a PoC to be mistaken in any assessment of racism?

Is a single definition of 'racism' an objective fact that is universally agreed on?

[lavendertook.livejournal.com]

OK. So why is it OK to dismiss out of hand someone who is pointing out racism, or to question the good faith of the person doing that pointing out?

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'll feel any loss personally. It's not like I'm not used to having rather tarnished "heroes" in the SF world or for that matter the blogging or feminist worlds. I feel worse for the loss of the people who are writers and editors who looked up to the Nielsen Haydens because they not only have the personal disappointment, they have to worry about professional repercussions and yet are speaking their minds anyway. That's not a comfortable position to be in. I have nothing to lose in this game personally.

In that one thread on Making Light that I linked to, I had to deal with reading Tom Whitmore's pompous comments and felt sick to my stomach. Bad enough I'm gonna have to deal with that drunk, groping, creepy dude at Potlatch. Talk about "safe space". I think of what David Levine said about having to "feel a twinge" as he worries about whether he might have offended anyone, and pretty much go ballistic as I consider how much armor I have to wear just to tolerate being around that crowd at conventions, to be with my actual friends and allies. Yes... yes I want people like that to "feel a twinge" and think before they open their damn mouths, and when they screw up, apologize and quit doing it.

I realize I'm losing my temper a bit here but that thread.... my god how smug. The rest of it is building up too. The anti-elitist hordes? Sockpuppets? Maoism? What? And the whole "malevolent cunt" thing, also? That was both messed up and hilarious to watch people falling all over themselves to explain it away.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Hey, as long as we define someone else's getting "their acts together" as thinking and behaving in ways that you agree with and based on theories of reading you subscribe to, there's absolutely no reason you should give people the benefit of the doubt that they'll do that. Because they won't.

I'm not expecting anyone to think exactly like I am. When I expect people to "get their acts together" when it comes to discussions about racism, it means I expect them to engage in the struggle - not roll out when it got tough. And not to sit back and turn the whole thing into a conversation about how hurt they are. Like no one else was hurt by it at all. That's bullshit and it's dishonest.


But as long as you assume malice, you're unlikely to understand people. That's your choice, of course. And no doubt it feels a lot fuzzier than supposing that any of the miscommunication problem falls on your side.

And I say again, it's rare that I ever write people off completely. It's not something I like doing. More likely I'll stop talking to someone first and maybe we'll come back to it later and maybe we won't but the door still is open to some degree.

I have the right, and I'm sure you've opted to do the same at some point of your life, not to let crap in when it has no use. This does not.

Should you want to continue this conversation, you can contact me at ladyj dot 965 at gmail dot com. I'm not going to hijack Liz's journal with this.

Liz, I'm sorry this is getting out of hand and I'll take it somewhere else.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I don't see how anything could possibly alienate anyone more than "malevolent cunt."

[lavendertook.livejournal.com]

It's possible, but why is this the first assumption, the very first question, given that a POC minority in a majority white culture has more experience than a white person in experiencing racism? Why not extend the benefit of the doubt to POC off the bat?

And knowing how pervasive racism is (or do you disagree that racism is a pervasive problem?) do you think that POC cry foul on every possible indication of racism they see?

No, language is culturally constructed. And if you have something about the definition of racism you want to point out, please have out with it now.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

YW.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

YW.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Then I think you've had a failure of imagination.