badgerbag: (Default)
[personal profile] badgerbag

Piglet: when i'm bored i go on usenet and see who's said somthing stupid so i can flame out and get mad. Yay!

vito - Something is often wrong on the internet.

Wait, are you liveblogging this?

liz: well...yes ... i was kinda thinking...

vito: it's just the internet , right?

sparky: why do i have to harsh people's squee? and just watch women of color be raped and murdered and colonized. why can't i just chill out?

vito: Yeah and why aren't you out there shooting someone in the head?

sparkey: I go into a rage coma when people say that . I was at worldcon, and there was a huge flame war about modernism in sf. if we can flame out over something hg wells and henry james wrote to each other in some letters, then we can flame out over some gross disgusting racism.

vito: does internet drama help?

julia: (stuff)

piglet: i learned a lot from internet drama : we still need feminism. 20 years ago on soc.feminism. i don't hate my body. don't get discouraged on the first, fourth, and fifteenth conversations. The point has to be (and will be) made over and over. It did teach me. I learned something.

vito: convincing someone else takes time.

sparky: i have learned that i am ignorant about a lot of things. stuff i've learned. for example that i am deeply ignorant about latino culture

liz: i learned something this week. I was just reading a great article on mock spanish and its racism and how it reinforces whiteness. I had to reevaluate every time i might have said "no problemo".

sparkeymonster: west wing: kumar fake country
liz: isn't that umm Bujold?
sparky: Quman. I thought oh, well, maybe it's a good way to talk about islam or something. My friend finally pointed out to me, ever notice the fake country is never France or England? i was like ohhhhhh! now i get it!

piglet: how to apologize? not to defend, but to say, oh, you're right i'm sorry.

vito: what if you don't get that right?

vito: How not to make a heidipology. heidi in harry potter fandom is famous for her fake apologies (hilarious examples of passive aggressive non-apologies)

rubyfail, perl playmate fail. (link: geek feminism wiki! Acme::Playmate talk )

sparky: You might not comment immediately. Comment that you saw it, you're taking a break and will get back.

vito: What if I don't have time to deal with this? Can you participate if you don't have an hour a day to keep up? How long can you read racefail?

Liz: only an hour?!

sparky: (stuff)

liz i'ts important! keep up with it, if all your friends are paying attention to some issue then read about it .

aud: how DO we keep up with it?

liz: we need and reporters to update it.

sparkey: i call it livejournal.

liz: twitter is kind of good for it.

vito: linkspam.dreamwidth. metafandom, fandomwank, etc.

charlotte: if my sister wasn't keeping up with it, i wouldn't know
lisa: what about ian who doesn't read the net, but i wanted to get him to be aware of racefail and what people would be talkng about at wiscon?

liz: Zines! newspapers! maybe we need print magazines about the internet drama.

(later thought edited in: print media is already like 1/3 "something happened on the internet" but it is very very slow and can't keep up, and misses quite a lot or doesn't cover it because it's too controversial or is about racism, or sex, and when they do it's not gossipy enough to be interesting. they don't know who to interview, and our journals are not legitimate sources. basically, there are no legitimate sources. )

sparkey: well people maybe need to own their responsibilty for that and do something about it (i.e. ian can read the internets once in a

liz: like we should all know about the Great Blow JOb Wars of the feminist blogosphere.
Aud: (collectively) Whut?

audience is NOT aware of the great blow job wars of 2005. what! we have lost our history. alas. get on the googles. Did I imagine it? look at Twisty Faster and it's all in there somewhere.

vito(or was it someone else?) : coffeeandink is sort of a reporter on internet fail. so good. commentary, links, status, analysis.

(general agreement amongst everyone on this point)

Liz: dale spender, principle that as a feminist i have to show the person i'm talking about what i'm going to say about them, and consider their response and feelings as a human being... and that considering that changes what i want to say. tried it with rachel m. and with theferrett from open source boob.

aud: what did they say?

liz: both talked w me and kind of thought about it and declined. maybe in the future we will get their perspective.

seal press drama. Sparkey explains the entire backstory.
colonize this - good book!

feminist bloggers

vito sums up marcotte's response. she could have said oh damn i didn't see that, we fucked up. she could have said i'll think about it later and respond. "but she chose the 3rd path which was to say fuck you"

sparky further discusses marcotte's defensiveness fail
WAM women in media conference.
Liz: and i was like dang do i have to not read this blog now? because it's still good.

aud: what do you do when someone is awesome. omg they fail. really badly and they're your guest of honor in two weeks. just hypotheically...

liz: like, we should have spontaneous programming about mammoth fail right now. could we handle it

sparky: the bar is low
vito: yes
sparky; all a con com has to do is just not tell you to shut up because you're too sensitive, how hard is that? like, even just saying there is a concern about X, the con com has no official opinion on that.

sparky: this con in boston. Oh yay it's so awesome we have orson scott card! they somehow missed that whole thing. they had a crew to follow him around the con and stop him from saying messed up homophobic things.

vito: the entire last 12 years...

liz: why do they fear it! embrace it! let people go off! it's conversation! we *want* people to talk about difficult stuff and ideas!

aud: : sue jacobi ,age of american unreason. abuse of the intellectual in america. great book, read it.

julia: will shetterly...
liz: were you pronouncing the asterisk?
julia: yes.
aud: don't say it three times.
julia: i dont think i could have a really respectful conversation with him.

liz: Tools! macros, bingo cards. joy of drama!

vito: what about when your friend wrongs someone, who you don't like?

julia: oh, this is the part where i hate principles. really hard. say you love them and respect them and a privilege call out is an act of love and affection. i don't think you meant to do that, i don't think you're the most horrible person ever and i'm telling you because i think you can handle it

liz: We should keep in mind how it feels to be in that hotseat of having fucked up. it sucks when 2000 strangers are piling on you. I'm not necessarily saying pity them, but know they are shellshocked a bit. expect it.

danny: what seems to spark a particularly bad reaction is a bunchof people's reactions being called a "mob" - it is not a mob it is a lot of individuals having their own valid reactions.

liz: you might have to be particularly skilled at ignoring what people say about you, too, to be doing whatever you're doing. amanda marcotte has had to develop a thick skin, if been thru fire of taking fire from actual idiots, being a bit famous, then a person might misapply that thick skin when hearing criticism from allies.

sparkey: master's tools and vito.
and, tone argument, anger not okay
liz going to pick on you

liz: oh goody! you're talking about ME!

sparky: when i go get mad about something like a ramp not being here, i will be seen as more reasonable and polite. oh, julia is so passionate about disablity access. my anger is okay while liz's wont be.

liz: sometimes that's okay and helpful but sometimes I really dont like it when people appropriate my anger, i'm like, go have your own anger about your own issues!

sparky: yeah, as an ally, you have to suck it up, sometimes you fail

aud: misconception that what we're going for is zero fail. people afraid to fuck up. but people fuck up! i love to read fail and i love to snark. i don't hope for a fail-less universe

vito: i'm going to be a jerk and refer to my own post. I posted a conversation with imaginary david levine nice guy friend of friends but, imaginary david ravine. about one of my fuck ups which I won't go into. . do read it, it says what I wanted to express about that.

chris bifemmefatale: i get to where, i'm privileged and i'm not going to post about it but oh i wonder if i'm harming my friends or poc or trans friends by being silent...

vito: Interrupting you, with love and affection, i dont care about your guilt. do whatever you want.

Liz: how not to burn out ?

vito: sometimes taking it to protected spaces. deepad did that with locking some posts, after a while couldn't keep up with the random haters.

sparky: burnout in progressive communities. (some advice, i missed it)

aud: shetterly has an internet safe word for his friends now.
aud: can we know what this word is???

*everyone cracks up*

vito: it would not work even if we knew it.

alan b: I am only one in horrible misogynist etc comunity and have to be there for my professional life. i feel sometimes like the only voice of sanity and i'm seen as the asshole.

liz: Hmm. Cry me a river??
*brief silence in room*
Julia: Yeah. You just have to suck it.
piglet: You might just have to deal.

sparky: long serious answer to alan b
liz: long serious answer to alan b, about women in tech conferences, having a guy running a hackathon say Mars needs women, and me agreeing but do i want to bring my friends into that situation just to be my backup, when it is full of fail and harm?

naamen: backup of, having a community, affirming for me, was this just fucked up ? or was it my imagination? not minions!

karen: if you're like, oh, i feel like such an asshole, keep in mind the Asshole theory of systems. every system needs one asshole.

vito: If you dont know who the asshole is, it's you.

liz: There's a danger of being a pet asshole, co-opted. The pet radical who makes a community feel like it is tolerant.

aud: it's important where you put your asshole. don't put them over you, you'll be covered in shit!

aud: suck it and deal with it is a valid response too.

julia: usually i have a whole discusson of why you need to suck it.

liz: my friend has a tag for #suckit. queenofspain on twitter.

closing thoughts- (i have forgotten them except piglet's)

piglet: and... people of color are not a hive mind

Date: 2009-05-24 11:07 pm (UTC)
al_zorra: (Default)
From: [personal profile] al_zorra
Yeah, like at least speak word correctly -- 'no problema,' despite the article being 'el.'

Drives me nutz.

Love, C.

Date: 2009-05-25 10:01 am (UTC)
bibliofile: Fan & papers in a stack (from my own photo) (Default)
From: [personal profile] bibliofile
I think that I got it from Terminator 2 -- I blame Hollywood.

Date: 2009-05-25 08:30 pm (UTC)
bibliofile: Fan & papers in a stack (from my own photo) (Default)
From: [personal profile] bibliofile
Cool. I wasn't following any links on the first read.

Date: 2009-05-26 01:10 am (UTC)
sami: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sami
Man. I've never said it, but only because it seemed incredibly cheesy and American to me. I hadn't even made the connection that it was faux-Spanish.

Americans put -O on things! It just made sense! They also put -ies on things but "No problemies" would sound stupid.


I swear, it's a whole subcategory of racism-ignorance: "That's not racist in MY culture." It's the category where my worst fails all seem to have happened. I've been all, what, how can that possibly be racist, and then someone explains to me, and it's terribly embarrassing. (I have occasionally been on the other side, explaining, no, really, you CAN'T SAY THAT in Australia, but it's not the same thing at all.)

I can't think of specific examples from my own life offhand, but I remember the famous television example. Muhammad Ali being interviewed by Bert Newton, an Australian presenter. Bert, after some conversation, was delighted to discover that this legendary boxer widely depicted as rather arrogant turned out to be kind of awesome, and declared to the camera and audience:

"I like the boy!"

Ali looked shocked and angry, and for a moment like he was going to punch Bert Newton in the face, before, with an expression of dawning realisation in the face of Bert's incomprehension at his sudden anger and everyone around having this reaction of mystification, that this was not intended as a racist slur. It just hadn't occurred to Bert Newton that referring to an African-American man as a "boy" would be offensive. Australia has no history of "boy" being used as a term to demean someone racially, and *does* have an endemic tendency for "boy" or "boys" to be a term for adult men that's sort of "generic inclusive" - it marks that you think of the man in question as a person who is known and liked, rather than as a stranger.

Sports team captains will refer to their players as "the boys". My best friend and I refer to her fiance and our male housemate as "the boys". My mother and I have referred to my father and a friend of his as "the boys". Of my brother-out-law, I can say: I love the boy.

... Sorry for the lengthy comment. Mostly, just: Huh, cultural things are weird, and racist implications can trip you up, and there's this odd mix of feeling like you should make allowances (e.g. Ali not actually punching Newton in the face despite what would, were Bert Newton American, count as fairly comprehensive provocation), but still try your best and make amends when you screw up (when he realised why Ali was offended, Newton apologised with sincere horror and regret that he'd said something so hurtful - and since Ali had already indicated he wasn't in fact going to hit him, I don't think it was *just* because Ali could kick his head in if he chose).

Date: 2009-05-26 06:49 pm (UTC)
softestbullet: Aeryn cupping Pilot's cheek. He has his big eyes closed. (AtLA/ ew sunshine)
From: [personal profile] softestbullet
when he realised why Ali was offended, Newton apologised with sincere horror and regret that he'd said something so hurtful

I heard a similar story from a Canadian man, only the moral of his story was that You Shouldn't Assume Racism.

Date: 2009-05-26 11:54 pm (UTC)
sami: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sami

But regardless of whether he meant to, he'd still said something that, essentially, hurt Ali's feelings. Sure, he couldn't have known, couldn't have prevented it, didn't mean to, etc. He still said something that upset the man.

So he apologised. And Ali went oh, okay, I understand, and everything was fine.

If you step on someone's foot without intending to, you still cause them pain. When alerted to your standing on their foot, you apologise, and move away, and everything is fine. Why would you be all, "I didn't MEAN to step on your foot, so you have no right to be annoyed!" The thing that will cause real and lasting offence is that. Because whether you meant to do it is not the point, you DID IT, so apologise, move, and everybody involved will be satisfied.

If you don't recognise the injury you just did and apologise, you compound it. Why is that so hard?

Date: 2009-05-27 02:17 am (UTC)
softestbullet: Aeryn cupping Pilot's cheek. He has his big eyes closed. (SCC/ what he beheld)
From: [personal profile] softestbullet
I hope I didn't sound like I was disagreeing!

Date: 2009-05-27 02:49 am (UTC)
sami: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sami
Oh, you didn't, it's more... I don't get the other point of view.

Well. I sort of do, and sort of don't. I would put it at: you shouldn't assume malice. Without any other evidence, I think it's preferable to assume that someone is not intentionally being a jerk.

It's possible for events to pan out such that no-one did anything wrong, and yet people are still justified in taking offence. The Newton/Ali example is one of those. Bert Newton was not being racist; had he had racist intent, even unconsciously, he would have said something different, something that actually had racist connotations in Australia. He intended no offence, but he gave offence, because he said something that, to Ali, was highly insulting.

Newton was not wrong to say what he said.

Ali was not wrong to be upset at what he said.

But it cost Bert Newton nothing to apologise. And his apology was sincere because he was apologising for giving offence, not for being racist.

If something you said offends someone, it's just wrong to say that you didn't mean it, and therefore it doesn't matter, they shouldn't be offended. You apologise. If you don't know why it's offensive, you find out, so you can avoid doing it again.

The hallmark of Racefail all year has been that whatever set it off causes far less trouble than subsequent defensiveness does.

Date: 2009-05-25 02:30 am (UTC)
brownbetty: (Default)
From: [personal profile] brownbetty
I love your blogging, and I can't criticize, because you're the best there is, but oh how I wish you'd included Vito's Heidipology snark, because damn I love that wank.

Date: 2009-05-26 01:35 pm (UTC)
trouble: Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it (Default)
From: [personal profile] trouble
She had a *cheat sheet* on Heidi? Oh my!

I heard about that panel. I can't recall why I didn't attend it, though, woe!

Date: 2009-05-25 08:56 am (UTC)
sparkymonster: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sparkymonster

Date: 2009-05-25 05:42 am (UTC)
jesse_the_k: Perfectly circlular white brain-like fungus growing on oak tree (gopher hunter)
From: [personal profile] jesse_the_k
I also adore your liveblogging: you triple my effective cranial capacity!

But lordy, woman, can I introduce you to the radical notion of a cut tag?

Date: 2009-05-25 03:08 pm (UTC)
elf: Another link in the chain (Linkspam)
From: [personal profile] elf
This post has been included in a Linkspam roundup.

Date: 2009-05-26 06:52 pm (UTC)
softestbullet: Aeryn cupping Pilot's cheek. He has his big eyes closed. (BtVS/ win)
From: [personal profile] softestbullet
julia: will shetterly...
liz: were you pronouncing the asterisk?
julia: yes.
aud: don't say it three times.


Date: 2009-05-26 07:04 pm (UTC)
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)
From: [personal profile] cofax7
Best part of the whole thing! So awesome.

I wish I'd been able to attend this.

Date: 2009-05-27 12:46 am (UTC)
softestbullet: Aeryn cupping Pilot's cheek. He has his big eyes closed. (Office/ false. I do not miss him)
From: [personal profile] softestbullet
Me toooo!


Date: 2009-07-14 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
poUknJ qbwehuqrqois (, [url=]cmmminfefbol[/url], [link=]izkgyhbzsjit[/link],

Date: 2009-07-30 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Ah hahah at Heidipology. I know of her, not so familiar with her apology-fails, but I'm very much in HP fandom. ;p

Also, the truly-correct phrase is "ningun problema". ;p

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